The Plot

[RonHiler]

So I've been writing the game's plot (which I am certainly not going to share with you guys). I'm finding this is somewhat more difficult than I had originally expected.

I know exactly how the plot starts (and a fair ways into the game). I also know exactly how it ends (the ending is a big part of what inspired me to take on this project in the first place). I also know this is a pretty fair ways into the back end of the game. What's tricky is the middle :)

What complicates this is how the plot is communicated to the player. This is done through the missions, and each mission has an intro and outro cutscene. The former sets up the mission, while the latter both closes it out and advances the plot (along with the mission itself).

The thing is, I don't want there to be any "Filler" missions. There should always be a reason you are taking on any particular mission goal, and it should have consequences to the game's story. I'm trying to keep faithful to that, but sometimes that can get dicey. I can see why some developers throw in those fillers sometimes. But I will keep to my goal and make sure each mission advances the plot in some fashion. (there will be plenty of non-plot related stuff to do, side activities and such to keep the players amused when they don't feel like dealing with the storyline).

Anyway, I think I'm going to change my approach a little bit. Since I knew the beginning and ending so well, I went right into fitting those parts of the story line into specific missions, setting up the mission tree. As I get into parts of the plot that are less well defined in my head, I find I'm having trouble with the mission tree. So instead I am going to do some straight up plot writing and not even think about how it fits into the mission tree structure at all. I'll worry about that later on. That will mimic what I did for the first and last parts (I knew the plot already and fit it into the missions). I think that will help move things forward.

[Martdon]

Yeah, the middle is what keeps me from finishing anything. I usually get a lot of stuff for it, but can't really twist it all together and make it build off of each other. Looking forward to seeing the story complete, though. Good luck!

[RonHiler]

Heh, yeah. I know where we are and I know where we want to go. It's just a matter of bridging that gap. And I have a general idea of how to do it, but I need to get the specifics down.

[Pix]

I demand a large number of tedious delivery and "kill 10 rats" missions! Bonus points if the latter are UO-style, because I haven't seen rabbits chasing noobs through a city in years!

[RonHiler]

No digital rats will be harmed during the creation of this game.....er......wait, I can't promise that :)

[RonHiler]

I've made some progress on this, so it's looking up.

The reason I make such a big deal over this is that the plot, in a lot of ways, is going to shape many aspects of the game. Right down to the level design. So yeah, I have to get this nailed down right from the start. Still working on it...

[RonHiler]

I have 80% of the main plot lines done, at least in broad strokes. They haven't yet been fit into mission trees. That'll be the next step once I finish up the last plot line.

This is taking much MUCH longer than I expected. But you have to get the plot right, yeah? Without a plot, the whole thing just falls apart, heh.

[RonHiler]

I should have mentioned earlier I suppose, but the plot is done. I love it. Now that I have a full story in front of me, I'm ten times more stoked to put this game together, heh.

It's kind of long and involved though. How many missions are too many in a sandbox game? Not a rhetorical question, if anyone has any opinions.

I'm in the process of working the plot into mission trees, which is actually relatively simple now that I know how everything goes. From that I'll put together a list of locations that I need (I'll get a similar set of required locations from the side activities). That will help with the level design.

The framework as far as the creative side of the game is all starting to come together now. Which is pretty exciting!

As far as the technical goes, I have a tech testing demo thing I'm working on that I'll show you guys in a while. Perhaps I will make a video of it or something.

[Martdon]

Really excited to see it! So yeah, hurry up :P No holiday turkey/stuffing/ham/ect, until we get a peek! Heh, kidding, but yes really looking forward to it

[Strike]

How many missions are too many in a sandbox game? Not a rhetorical question, if anyone has any opinions.

Disclaimer: My opinions are this are from limited datapoints (playing through most of Fallout3, listening to people talk about Skyrim, and playing < 24 hrs of Morrowind... oh, and a smidge of InFamous,and I watched a couple people play some of GTA back around 2001, lol).

Oh, I guess I'm not clear on your question: Are you asking about main-quest missions, or main quest + sidequests?
Depends on how long you want the game to be, and how much content is not explored in the main quest.

I think I'm more used to using quests to provide structure to the game. I know I personally don't play the sandbox part of games, I just go through as many quests as I can to see as much of the game content as I can get. But then, sandbox isn't really my style. I'm too story-oriented.

In a "pure" sandbox game (more like what I remember of GTA or InFamous), the missions essentially just unlock the next area of the game, right?

Hm, thinking a bit more, it depends on how much (good) content you have. I tend to enjoy epic-sized stories, and that carries over to what I want from a video game as well; but Portal was a great game in part because it was short. So are you writing a short-story-sized tale, or a 10-book 1000-page-each monstrosity? ;)


Hah. Guess that was less helpful than I thought it was gonna be. :)

[RonHiler]

Disclaimer: My opinions are this are from limited datapoints (playing through most of Fallout3, listening to people talk about Skyrim, and playing < 24 hrs of Morrowind... oh, and a smidge of InFamous,and I watched a couple people play some of GTA back around 2001, lol).

You played through most of Fallout 3? Impressive :)


Oh, I guess I'm not clear on your question: Are you asking about main-quest missions, or main quest + sidequests?
Depends on how long you want the game to be, and how much content is not explored in the main quest.
I'm talking critical mission path only. Not counting side activities. There won't be any side "quests" as such. The side activities are more activities (races, protection, kill challenges, puzzles, etc) rather than quests (go here and do this). So I'm not counting those. That's a whole separate issue.



I think I'm more used to using quests to provide structure to the game. I know I personally don't play the sandbox part of games, I just go through as many quests as I can to see as much of the game content as I can get. But then, sandbox isn't really my style. I'm too story-oriented.

Fair enough. So for you, the more missions (story) the better (presuming the plot draws you in)?



In a "pure" sandbox game (more like what I remember of GTA or InFamous), the missions essentially just unlock the next area of the game, right?

There will be some of that (especially at the beginning), but I intend to give the player a lot of area to freely roam. There is really no reason to lock anything down, except where it is necessary for the story purposes. Think about GTA, the entire city is open for playing around in from the very beginning, and yet that city serves as the setting for all the missions as well. Given the setting we have, I won't give the players quite that amount of freedom, but I'd like to give them as much as possible. I want exploration to be a part of this game, the missions aren't going to hand-hold you through each new section of the dungeon.


Hm, thinking a bit more, it depends on how much (good) content you have. I tend to enjoy epic-sized stories, and that carries over to what I want from a video game as well; but Portal was a great game in part because it was short. So are you writing a short-story-sized tale, or a 10-book 1000-page-each monstrosity? ;)

It feels like the latter :) I always tend to go big, it's just my nature (and that gets me into trouble when trying to do games, to be sure). I think the content is good (at least the plot is, I think). Of course, the trick is to take that plot and drop it into missions that are engaging and fun, with memorable characters and settings. If you can manage that, you have the basis for a good game (the skeleton at least, the side activities and exploration flesh it out).


Hah. Guess that was less helpful than I thought it was gonna be. :)
Comments are always good! It makes me take what are sometimes amorphous thoughts and ideas and solidifies them into concrete concepts.

[Strike]

Here's a couple more comments then ^_^


You played through most of Fallout 3? Impressive :)
Hah--I almost beat Fallout 2 twice, and once I get a computer that'll run it, I'm gonna restart Fallout 3 with a different archtype. And I still have a late-game Fallout 2 save to try to finish up sometime as well...


So for you, the more missions (story) the better (presuming the plot draws you in)?
Yeah. On my first play-through I do try to go everywhere once to be certain I'm not missing anything (Stupid secret areas...) but on replays, exploring is just something that gets in the way of finding the next mission to move the game forward.

Story is what keeps me playing, especially if there is any meaningful branches or multiple endings. If the plot is engaging, I'll even put up with some boring repetition in the mission playstyle, just to see What Happens Next.


There is really no reason to lock anything down, except where it is necessary for the story purposes.
Glad to hear you say so :) This is essential for my suspension of disbelief--getting around the "obvious" plan has always been a major part of tabletop RPGs for me. If there's a scene that has to be scripted, that's fine; just allow me the freedom to look for alternatives to reach the mission goals.

Hand-holding or rail-roading prevents me from interacting with the setting, and greatly reduces replayability.
...Well, not always; there are several side-scroll beat-em-ups with immense replay value IMO, and there's no real story with those--but that's a completely different genre.
In a sandbox game of any length, I just want to see all the content, and then I'm done. Sidescrollers get replay value from being difficult & limiting savepoints.

[RonHiler]

Cool, thanks Strike, this is good stuff. It is definitely helpful to see other people's views on these things. Otherwise I only have my own (biased) viewpoints to go by :)



Yeah. On my first play-through I do try to go everywhere once to be certain I'm not missing anything (Stupid secret areas...) but on replays, exploring is just something that gets in the way of finding the next mission to move the game forward.
I don't think you will have that problem in this game. It is not my intent to hide the next mission such that you have to go find it. Mission startup markers will always be clearly displayed. Exploration (and side activities) in this game leads to other rewards, but it is not meant to slow down people who just want to play through the missions.

Although I should point out that the exploration and side activity rewards are the equivalent of "leveling" in this game (they give you specific upgrades when you complete them). The missions don't do this. So if you ONLY play through the missions, it's going to get pretty difficult later on. I'd hate to see someone go into the final missions as the equivalent of a level 1 character, heh. Maybe there should be an achievement for that :)


Story is what keeps me playing, especially if there is any meaningful branches or multiple endings. If the plot is engaging, I'll even put up with some boring repetition in the mission playstyle, just to see What Happens Next.

Heh, well I'll try to keep the missions from getting repetitive. As long as I can keep to my goal that each mission should have some affect on or advance the plot in some way, that shouldn't be too hard.



Glad to hear you say so :) This is essential for my suspension of disbelief--getting around the "obvious" plan has always been a major part of tabletop RPGs for me. If there's a scene that has to be scripted, that's fine; just allow me the freedom to look for alternatives to reach the mission goals.

Hand-holding or rail-roading prevents me from interacting with the setting, and greatly reduces replayability.

Okay, fair enough. I'll keep this in mind when designing the missions to allow for the freedom to complete them in multiple ways. That was already my intent, but I will try to keep in the front of my brain while designing.